The Effect of Childhood Family Trauma on Adult Relationships Podcast

Editor's note: This text-based course is a transcript of The Effect of Childhood Family Trauma on Adult Relationships Podcast, presented by podcast host Benjamin T. Bencomo, DSW LISW, LCSW, and podcast guest Kaytlyn Gillis, MSW, LCSW-BACS.

Learning Outcomes

After this course, participants will be able to: 

• Describe childhood family trauma.
• Identify ways childhood family trauma can manifest in adult relationships.
• Identify the six stages of healing from childhood family trauma.

Podcast Discussion 

Ben: Hello and good morning, Kaytee. I am very excited about our podcast today. We have with us, Kaytee Gillis. Kaytee Gillis is a psychotherapist, author, and consultant with a passion for working with survivors of traumatic relationships. She's a licensed clinical social worker and a board-approved clinical supervisor. Kaytee has extensive experience working with survivors of family trauma and dysfunction. Due to both her personal and professional experiences, Kaytee has focused her work on helping survivors grow in the aftermath of trauma. She has published two books on intimate partner abuse, and her third most recent book is being released this weekend, the first weekend of July, 2023. Through her published writing, as well as her presentations and trainings, Kaytee hopes to help others develop awareness and healing. Kaytee, I'm very excited for our conversation today. Thank you so much for joining us. I know it's a busy time for you, an exciting time for you. Thanks for being here.

Kaytee: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to talk about this. I know it's weird to say exciting to talk about trauma, but it is really a passion of mine to talk about this topic.

Ben: Absolutely, and a passion for many of our listeners, I'm sure. So I'm sure that everything that you have to share with us today will be very well received by our listeners. Kaytee, I am always really interested in hearing about how people find social work or, better yet, how social work finds us. I find that very interesting. So if you wouldn't mind, would you share a little bit about your own path to social work? How did social work find you?

Kaytee: I love that you say it like that. I love that you say it finds us because that's actually how I was gonna answer that was, you know, I remember as a child always being like, "Oh, I wanna be a veterinarian," and I even could say that word as a child. And I remember my mom being like, "Oh, that's interesting. She can say that word at a very young age." So I really wanted to be a veterinarian. I really wanted to help animals. And then, for a while, I thought I was gonna be a lawyer for maybe a second or two. And then, all of a sudden, by the end of high school, I was like, "Oh, I'm going to go to school and study psychology." 

And now I know, as most social workers and therapists, is that many of us, not all, but many of us, go into this field trying to kind of figure out our own history and like, "Oh, if I can study psychology, that'll make things make sense, or if I can solve other people's trauma, that'll help me kind of help my own." So I really think it just kind of fell on me like that. So it definitely, like you said, came to me.

Ben: My daughter is currently in the "I want to be a vet" stage, so she and I watch all of the vet shows as often as we can. But yes, it is interesting how social work at different points in our life just kind of starts to make sense for us as well. I know that I and many others are glad that social work found you and that you have been able to share a lot of your experiences already through your writing and presentations. So again, we are happy to have you here.

Kaytee: Thank you.

Ben: How did you first become interested in working in the specialized area of family trauma specifically?

Kaytee: So this is definitely another thing where, you know, it is weird because I feel like so many of us have kind of two minds. It is like we know we have dysfunctional history. You know, if we have dysfunctional history, we know it, but maybe we just kind of compartmentalize it, we put it on the back burner, so to speak. And we think, "Okay, well, it's not going to affect me. You know, I just am aware of it." And then I noticed that the universe has its way of sending you clients who you can relate to, like, have the issue that maybe you have or something. I really think the universe does that to us. So many of my clients, if not most or all, had some kind of family trauma, and even if they were coming in for other things, like relationship issues, I work a lot with domestic violence, it is a lot of people coming in for help with that of course, depression, anxiety, life stressors, things like that, but then we would find that there was some underlying dysfunction or some underlying trauma that was more than just the, like, and I'm using, like, my air quotes, like normal dysfunction or things like that, things that really stuck with them.

And so they were coming in for anxiety, yeah, they were coming in for insomnia or an unhealthy relationship or even an abusive relationship. But then we start talking about, oh, well, they haven't had any healthy relationships in their whole life, and we would really start to kind of unpack that. And I started being like, "Wow, okay this is really a pattern. It's a pattern among all my clients," like patterns I can see in them because of my professional experience with them, but also because I'm like, "Yeah, I remember that. I remember having those thoughts and those feelings and those kinds of awakening moments and things like that." So it really kind of all started to kind of come down from there.

Ben: Kaytee, can you define for us what is childhood family trauma specifically? To use some of your words, can you share information on the difference between, and I'm gonna use air quotes as well, between a normal level of dysfunction and what might make a family experience traumatic, especially in childhood?

Kaytee: Absolutely, okay, so I always kind of say that trauma, right now, is a buzzword. I feel like it is every third thing that you click on, especially if you are on, like, the TikToks and the Instagrams of the world. Everything is trauma, and that's good, but it is also kind of, you know, many argue that we are kind of watering it down and things like that. So I do want to say that I recognize that it is really broad right now, but I also wanna recognize that family trauma itself is broad. There is a normal level of dysfunction because I feel like no person, no human being, is going to go through this lifetime with a perfect childhood.

And people who do, I mean, good for them, but maybe, I don't know, I think that in itself would be a form of trauma because then you're sheltered, anyway, podcast for another day. But I really think that people who have gone through trauma, like family trauma, understand that this is something that affects them more than just the, "Okay, like Mom had her quirks, or Dad did his thing," or whatever. It's more than stuff like that. So, what I like to do is kind of give an example. A normal level of dysfunction is a family who can usually acknowledge that they're imperfect. Many times you'll hear them even joke about it.

I'm not saying it's exact, like it's an exact determinant to figure out what's normal dysfunction and what's not. But usually, families who are healthy in their imperfections, they're able to say, "Yeah, we're imperfect. Like this is something that we recognize," and you can bring it up. You can acknowledge it, and there's not a power struggle behind it. You know, you could probably say to your caregiver, "Hey, this is something you kind of do," and, "Oh, I do kind of do that." You know, and there's more of that give and take as opposed to the punishment that comes from growing up in a very dysfunctional environment that is weaponized. So I know I say all that, and that's very, very broad, but family trauma is, like, anything that a person feels happened in their family of origin and in their childhood that is affecting them today.

So it could be anything from growing up in a place where there was a national disaster, growing up in a war zone, having to flee your country and come to another country, or having parents who have a mental illness. I always like to specify it's untreated mental illness. I'm not trying to stigmatize mental illness. There are people every day, all day, managing mental health and parenting. And that's not at all automatically a trauma. I'm talking about untreated. You know, I have many clients whose parents were dealing with some serious mental health symptoms, and they were untreated, and that can be traumatizing for a child. And the same thing with substance use, untreated, I mean. So things like that that happen in the childhood environment that people feel impacts them today in their adult life.

Ben: That makes sense, and I'm glad you explained that because it is a bit of a double-sided coin when we see these conversations happening more readily in different circles. And so I appreciate that you explained that, that while we are excited that people are having these conversations and acknowledging traumatic experiences, we wanna make sure that it's not diluted and that we really understand what that traumatic experience might look like.

Kaytee: I always tell clients, you know, I work a lot with teens and adolescents, and they'll come to me and be like, "Oh, I found out on TikTok that," and whenever they start the sentence with, "I found out on social media that," I'm like, "Oh, yeah." So they're like, "Oh, this means that I have this disorder. This means that I have trauma." And they're not always wrong, but they're not always right. And so definitely, just be careful of where you get stuff. And I'm glad we're having these conversations, but on the other hand, I feel like there's always going to be, like you said, a give and take.

Ben: Yes, exactly. Kaytee, you started talking and defining some of these, but I wonder if we can go a little bit more into some of these major areas of problematic dysfunction that you talk about in family systems. Maybe if you can give us an example of what they might look like. You know, you spoke of untreated mental illness and substance use, but I know that there are many others. Would you mind going into those and giving us some examples?

Kaytee: Absolutely, so the ones I talk about in my book, and I'll just kind of give a rundown, and then I'll go back and give examples. So I talk about abuse and neglect, and I know that they are often linked, but they are not always the same. Many times, they are different. Abuse, as we know, is something that happens to a person, and neglect is the absence of things happening. Substance use or mental illness within the family that is untreated; divorce or death in the family; changes in the family structure that are not dealt with appropriately; parental abandonment; and then psychological or narcissistic family structure or family system. So the first one, abuse and neglect, are frequently linked together. And I do link them together in my book, just for the sake of explaining them.

But abuse, of course, as we know, is something that happens to the person. Emotional abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse, and things like that. Neglect is, I find in my experience, and maybe other clinicians have had different experiences, I find that neglect often is something that was not done maliciously. It is kind of something that happens as a result of other things going on within the family. And I do want to say that many of the things I said, the reason why I listed them off first before explaining, is because so many of them can be intertwined. For example, let's say you have a parent who has an untreated mental illness or untreated substance abuse disorder, and they are really struggling with that. That can, of course, impact the whole rest of the family. And maybe the kid was, or the kids were neglected because the parent was struggling so bad with that mental illness that the kid was not getting the things that they needed for school and getting the care that they needed and the medical care and things like that.

So, so many of these things can really kind of happen together. It's not like they're mutually exclusive. So abuse and neglect, abuse happening to a child, of course, that's absolutely going to result in a traumatic history. Neglect, I find in my practice that neglect is something that so many people feel shame discussing because it's like abuse, for example, and not to minimize it in any way, shape, or form, but abuse you can come in, and you can say, "This happened to me. I was abused, this happened. I was hit, I was sexually abused," whatever. And you have almost, again, air quotes, evidence that it happened. And then that almost gives you the permission, again, air quotes, to grieve and be upset about it.

With neglect, there are so many other factors, especially when I work with clients from generations older than mine. So generations or cultures, where they were, like, "I wasn't neglected. I had to take care of my brothers and sisters. That was my role. That wasn't neglect." So there are so many different factors that come into that. It is definitely not something that is as easily examined. So I did talk about substance use and mental illness in the family, but again, untreated things like that.

I have had clients who wake up in the middle of the night, and Mom or Dad is acting paranoid or screaming with severe mental illness that is untreated. That is very traumatizing for a child because they do not know what is going on. Or absences where maybe a parent is hospitalized, or I have had a lot of clients whose parents have to be taken by EMTs or the police or stuff like that because of mental illness. It is that, right there, that is so traumatizing.

Divorce or death within a family. And again, I always wanna specify these are changes that are not dealt with appropriately. Having a divorce, like I always want to tell people, sometimes that is the best thing you can do. I'm not in any way trying to say do not divorce. It is not the divorce, and it is not the death. That is nobody's fault. Death happens, and, of course, it's scary to a child, and it's sad to a child, but it does not have to result in lasting trauma because ideally, in a loving, my air quotes again, perfect situation, the parents and the caregivers will help the child and say, "Yes, like this is what happened, the person," and dealt with it. However, it is that that family relates to death and how they want to kind of convey that message. What I find is traumatic is when it's something that's just brushed under the rug, like all of a sudden Mom never comes home, or all of a sudden Dad just, like, moves out one day and has another family. And then the kids are like, "Wait, what?" That needs to be explained. I have a lot of people come to me and say, "I'm really scared of getting divorced because I do not want to traumatize my child." And that is definitely a decision that I can never make for the client. But I always kind of want to stress that, on the other hand, we could be traumatizing kids by not doing the healthy thing and splitting a relationship that needs to be. So divorce that is not dealt with in a healthy way or any kind of change in a family structure; I usually use divorce and death, but anything that changes a family structure that is not dealt with.

Parental abandonment and this is not something like adoption. This is something like a parent just all of a sudden washing their hands of a child. And you see that a lot with kids who are involved in the criminal justice system. In my work with teens and a kid gets arrested, living in New Orleans, we have a lot of teen crime right now, and I know it is everywhere, but New Orleans really is dealing with a lot of it. So I have a lot of kids who are caught stealing a car, and their parents are, like, "I'm done with you." And you can not do that to a 15-year-old, and so it really fuels that cycle.

And then psychological or narcissistic family system, so when you have that psychological abuse. And I always like to differentiate psychological abuse from abuse; even though I know it is abuse and many times people use it the same as emotional abuse, I consider it as something that is just so unique and so different, and the experience is something that is so, like, it's hard to explain to people who have not really been through it. And so it is like a whole family system that works to kind of create the homeostasis of this dysfunctional system.

So those are the ones that I list in my book. I want to say these are not an exhaustive list. I mean, there are many other ways that people can say, "Okay, I had a different experience in my family that wasn't listed." These are some of the major ones that I see in my practice.

Ben: Absolutely. Thank you for that. Thank you for sharing those. I can see how so many of these can be very intertwined and interrelated, and you can have almost that layering, that compound trauma that happens within a family system that is experiencing, like you say, untreated substance use, untreated mental illness, and maybe there are absences of the parent because of the manifestations of some of that untreated mental illness or untreated substance use. And then there is also possibly acts of commission of abuse, acts of commission of neglect, and some of those things.

Kaytee: I like how you say that. "Layering." Because it is true, it is not like, okay, this one thing happened. So many of these things can affect each other.

Ben: Absolutely. Now, in your experience, what are some of the major ways that childhood family trauma can affect the survivors of those experiences into adulthood? In one of your articles published in Psychology Today it's entitled "10 Ways Childhood Trauma Can Manifest in Adult Relationships." So I am wondering if you wouldn't mind going into those ten specific ways that, in your experience, in your professional experience, those ten ways that those who experience that trauma that can find that this affects them in adulthood, can affect their relationships in adulthood, would you mind expanding on those a little bit for our listeners?

Kaytee: In my article, I have ten major ways that I have seen in my practice of having a childhood family dysfunction affecting us in relationships. And again, not an exhaustive list, but these are probably the major ten.

Number one is fear of abandonment. And that can look different in each of us. For some people, they are so scared of abandonment that they avoid relationships because if you never get into a relationship, then you are not going to be abandoned. And that even goes as far as some people struggling with friendships too. I mean, it does not always affect us in romantic relationships. A lot of times, it is with coworkers or things like that, you know, there is always like that guard up of this person is eventually going to hurt me, so I have to really kind of prepare accordingly. People who are in relationships and they find any kind of hint that the person is going to leave, they freak out. It really comes across as an anxious attachment. So anytime someone is like, "Okay, well, we just got in an argument, and I'm worried they're gonna leave," or they go out with friends or they do this, and it really is affecting every day, every aspect of their life. It's not just, "Okay, I have a fear of abandonment, and I acknowledge it." It's that, "I worry about my partner going to a guy's weekend because I'm scared they're gonna leave me," or stuff like that, that kind of thing where it affects their relationship, it affects the ability of the relationship to be a healthy trusting dynamic.

Number two, easily annoyed with others. I get a lot of interesting questions about this one, like, "What do you mean easily annoyed with others?" I have found that people who have had maybe narcissistic family structures allow psychological abuse in their family. They are very hyper-aware of things that other people might do that are going to set them off. And I am not excusing it in any way, but I find that it is like they are kind of in this constant state of hyper-arousal. So maybe their partner did not take out the dishes, and they're like, "Are you kidding me? Like, you didn't take out the dishes." Take out the dishes, I hope you aren't taking out the dishes. Put away the dishes or take out the trash. They took out the dishes!" So if the partner didn't take out the trash or something like that, "This is a sign that you don't love me. I knew it. You weren't listening to me." Things that are above, like, the normal, okay, if you're getting easily annoyed by other people and you're able to acknowledge it and you're able to say, "Okay, I'm feeling really irritable today." Like, I think we all have that time where we're like, "I'm feeling kind of irritable today, or maybe this weekend, maybe it's a change in our life," but what I'm looking for usually is a pattern. Like, are you constantly annoyed with the other person, like the way they sit, the way they dress, the way they sit down? This is usually a sign that you've been mistreated for so long in your childhood and you were unable to say anything. Because of the power differential, you were unable to say anything. So then, now that you have the freedom and this space, you're able to explain, and you're always in, like, that hyper-aware, hyper-aroused state.

Number three is kind of similar. Number three is needing a lot of time to yourself. And when I say it is similar, I mean that there are people who need a lot of time themselves, and there are people who get easily annoyed with others, and it has nothing to do with trauma. So especially for people who are neurodivergent, for example. That can just be who they are. So it does not necessarily mean that you have a history of trauma because you need a lot of time to yourself. But what I mean is a lot of times, these things, kind of like the things we were talking about earlier, they coexist at the same time. So people who have had a lot of overstimulation with being around other people or people who have a history of mistreatment in their childhood and were not allowed to take care of their own needs. So spending a lot of time by themself is a safe space because it is they were not allowed to do that. They were not allowed to take care of their own needs. They were not allowed to just be alone and things like that. So they take a lot of time to just be in that safe space.

Ben: Right, almost like an overcompensation for a lack of control in previous experiences and overcompensating by really wanting to over-control that experience.

Kaytee: Yeah, I like how you say that. It is funny because sometimes I'm like, it makes sense perfectly in my head. I feel like I find that when I'm writing, it makes perfect sense, and then I'm trying to explain it. I'm like, "How come it isn't coming across like how I wrote it in my article?" But yeah, you said it perfectly. That's exactly what I find. And I remember working with clients, and I would find that so many of them were like, "Oh, I just needed to take time to myself, like, after we had an argument or something." And I was like, "Huh, I'm seeing patterns here."

Number four is settling for unequal financial or household responsibilities. What I mean by this one is that the person is settling for mistreatment. I do not mean, "This is my responsibility, this is your responsibility, and then that's fine." And I'm not here to tell you what's yours and what's theirs. But settling for having someone who is, I have a lot of clients who someone was really mooching off them. Someone was really using them for their finances. They were using them for their home, and they always had some excuse of why they couldn't work or always had some kind of excuse of why they couldn't contribute. Or maybe they were working, but their money was going towards something else, and the person would just put up with it and put up with it and put up with it. And I would say, "What's going on here? What are you getting from this?" And it goes back to, again, sometimes, that fear of abandonment. Sometimes it's, "Well, they're gonna leave," or sometimes it's, "Well, this is the best I'm going to do in this relationship." And these are not, like, conscious statements. Like, people do not usually sit and say, "Oh, I'm never gonna get anyone better." It's usually something that's way back here in your head. You're not conscious of it, but somewhere the little voice, your inner child, is saying, "Okay, you're not going to get much better," or, "This is what you deserve," or things like that. That's common. Another common thing is people who observe that in their childhood, maybe they observed Dad never worked, and then Mom had to work three jobs, take care of the house, take care of the kids, that kind of thing. So they really learn that dynamic, and they learn that that is what happens and that you have to put up with it. So that is definitely something that is, definitely something that we would work through.

Staying in relationships much longer than their expiration date really follows that, so that is number five. And, like I said, a lot of these really kind of go together. So that one is something, again, goes back to that fear of abandonment, that fear of, "I'm never going to do anything, but I'm never going to get anyone better, I'm never going to get another relationship, like, this is the person who loves me. I might as well stay with them. This is the best I'm going to do." I mean, these are really this inner voice that many people are saying, and there's a lot of shame in that. There is a lot of shame in saying, "I feel like I can't do anything, do any better," but it's true. And it ends up with people staying maybe years past when the relationship was supposed to end. And a lot of times, in my work with domestic violence survivors, we will look back years before, and they will be like, "Well, that was red flag number one, and then this was red flag number," and I've been there, I've done that. "Okay, well, that was red flag number 70. Why did I ignore all these red flags? Probably because I grew up that I was supposed to ignore red flags or I was supposed to intellectualize them or excuse them or even deny them." Like, "Oh, that's not really happening. They're just having a bad day." So that is definitely something that we work with, that I work on with clients when they are dealing with that.

Another thing that ends up presenting a lot in the therapeutic session with couples is number seven, which is avoiding conflict. Wait, I'm sorry, that was number six. I jumped from number six, constant arguing and relationships or avoiding conflict at all costs. So that is something that I see a lot with couples where one person, I see that there is, like, one of two dynamics that will happen to the extreme. I mean, I feel like everyone kind of has their way of arguing. Everyone has their way of how they present themselves in an argument, and that is fine.

But I am talking about the extremes where, like, "I'm going to avoid any and all conflict because I'm scared of what's gonna happen," or, "I am going to like constantly argue to the 10th degree about everything like everything is a huge argument." And I always tell people, like, I worry about clients who are couples who will come in and say, "Oh, we never argue." And I'm like, "What do you mean never?" Like, you've been together ten years, and you've never had an argument? Like, I would kind of explore because I feel like arguing, even the word argue, the word fight, those things are such, like, negative words, but a lot of healthy things can come from having a healthy conflict as long as it's done in the right way.

Ben: Absolutely.

Kaytee: A lot of times, people who have had traumatic histories with family members where maybe communication felt like a war zone. If we say anything, it is going to get worse, so we really learn to just be quiet, or we learn that there is no way to just say, "Hey, I was kind of upset about this thing that you did. Maybe we can kind of talk about it." Instead, it is I look at it for those extremes. 

And then number seven kind of follows up with that is not knowing how to repair after fights. And this is something that is very common that I see with people who grew up in arguments, grew up in environments where there were no healthy arguments. And this is why when I work with families, people say to me, "I don't wanna argue in front of the kids." And I'm like, I understand that. I do not think anyone, like, loves arguing. I do not think anyone wants to argue in front of other people, but I feel like kids, like all human beings, need to see how healthy conflict is managed. Like, yeah, I mean, it's basically from social learning theory. We learn how to express our needs and express our displeasure through watching others.

Ben: That is a life skill, that learning how to resolve those conflicts in a healthy manner.

Kaytee: Absolutely. So, kids who do not see that, they do not know how to have an argument. So maybe a lot of teens I work with, it's like, "Oh, she looked at me wrong, and next thing I know, we're fighting, and whoa, how do we get to this point?" Because that is what they are seeing. That is how conflict is managed. You know, they would never sit down and just have a conversation. So people who do not know how to repair after having an argument. Maybe they'll have an argument, and then they separate, and they do not talk for three days, or they just never address it again. It's almost like it's brushed under the rug, and it never is talked about again.

There are many ways that you can have an argument and then handle it in an unhealthy way. And then there are many ways you can have an argument and handle it in a healthy way. So the people who don't know how to repair, the people who don't know how to come back and say, "Okay, maybe that wasn't my best moment. And how can we prevent this from happening again? You know, what would you like me to do? Would you like me to make sure I take out the trash every day or something like that?"

Or take out the dishes. Take out the dishes, want new dishes. So number eight is serial monogamy. And that one is the people who are, like, so scared to be out of a relationship, and it kind of relates back to the fear of abandonment, but it's like a step above that. It's like I can't be alone. So you'll see the people who are, like, in, like, a long-term monogamous relationship, as soon as that ends, boom, the next one, and then boom, the next one. And for some people, that just happens, and it works out. Maybe someone is in a long-term relationship, and then they get another long-term relationship, and that's fine. But what I mean is that people who cannot be alone. They have to then look for the next person. Then they have to kind of have someone lined up before ending a relationship because the fear of being alone and the feeling of being alone is so much worse than being with someone who isn't right for them.

Ben: Right, so they feel that need to immediately look for that security that they find externally in a relationship.

Kaytee: Yeah, absolutely, it's like security. Like, they feel like, "Okay, I need to have that person, 'cause having someone is better than not having anyone," because there's that inner voice that many children who grew up with neglect or grew up with abuse or grew up with really unhealthy levels of dysfunction, grew up with a lot of trauma, there's that inner voice in the back of their head that's like, "See, you're not lovable, you're not worthy, you're not able to be loved, you're not going to be able to be in a healthy relationship. You're going to be alone. You're gonna end up alone." And again, it is not conscious. It's really, like, in the back of the head.

Unless you have enough insight, then it is conscious. But usually, it's something that people aren't necessarily aware of, but they just know that they feel uncomfortable alone or they know they feel anxious. And so being with someone, it, like, helps to kind of prove to them, "See, I'm not unlovable 'cause I have a relationship." It doesn't matter if the relationship is unhealthy, it doesn't matter if the relationship is past its expiration date, but they have a person, so it's proving that they're lovable.

Ben: Yeah, that makes sense.

Kaytee: Yeah, so number nine kind of plays off of that is worrying about commitment. So I notice that clients kind of do the, or survivors do one of two things. That's either serial monogamy or they're afraid of commitment. And again, it kind of goes back to that fear of abandonment, but not always. But the people who are like, "I'm kind of avoidant of relationships," or, "Okay, I'm kind of interested in this person, but I don't want to commit," or anytime the relationship starts to get serious, they get kind of anxious and things like that because, again, people who were close to them hurt them. So either going to have other people who are close to them, then they're setting themselves up again to be hurt.

Ben: Right.

Kaytee: And the last one is trying to change your partner. And I find that many survivors of family trauma try to change their partner. And I remember, I mean, many of us have done this. I did this for years. You know, being like, "Oh, if you would only just do this, or if you'd only not do that, or if you only didn't use substances, or if you only could just get a job," or whatever it is that you feel like the person needs to do, trying to change them. And that definitely goes back to trying to change that caregiver who you couldn't change, and you couldn't provoke any kind of change in your caregiver. You couldn't give them any kind of constructive feedback or any kind of you couldn't even really tell them what they were doing and how it affected you. So it's like your brain is almost like, "This is your chance to change this person." Yeah, so those are the 10.

Ben: Yeah, thank you. Thank you for sharing those. They make perfect sense. And I can tell that this is something that you have a lot of experience with. In one of my previous lives, I worked with teens who were aging out of foster care and starting to navigate those adult relationships and adult responsibilities, and because of the traumatic experiences that they had experienced, I think that I was able to picture each one of these as you were explaining them. And that was sort of a constant cyclical pattern of not having that sense of control in childhood and because of the trauma that they experienced and having to move in and out of state foster care systems, trying to gain that control or searching for it in any way that they could by putting up those walls and pushing people away, "I'll hurt you before you hurt me," or the opposite of, "I really need this in my life." I wasn't really sure what you meant at first by serial monogamy, but when you explained it, that process of having to always have that person to feel that sense of security was manifested in a lot of the kids that I worked with as well. So those polar extremes.

Kaytee: Yeah, I talk about a lot of people who've gone through foster care in my book because I feel like when we talk about family trauma, we always end up assuming it's the parents. And many times it is, but I mentioned that in my book. I'm like, for each one of us, it's gonna be whatever was your home environment, whether you were raised by two uncles, by your grandparents, whether you had a foster family, whatever. And so I talk a lot about the people who've gone through the foster systems. That's really interesting that you've gone through that. Yeah, I bet you could see them in the examples.

Ben: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you again. I feel like this is a good transition time maybe to start talking about, we've talked about what some of these traumatic experiences might be, what they might look like, and then how they might manifest at different stages of a person's life. Now, this weekend, for those listening or watching us on the Continued YouTube page, this weekend, the first weekend of July, 2023, your book goes live, I guess, is the right word, right?

Kaytee: Yes, it is live on Amazon.

Ben: Okay, all right, and that book, I think, is a good transition of looking at what we do now, right? And so that book entitled "The 6 Stages of Healing from Family Trauma." Now, based on what you were talking about in regard to those specific areas of dysfunction, how might we start that process? What would be the first step in healing from family trauma?

Kaytee: So the first step, and I'm gonna start by just kind of doing a quick run-through of the six, just to say the names, just because it kind of helps people kind of visualize that there are six steps. So there's pre-awareness, uncovering, digging in, healing, understanding, and nurturing. And I say that so people kind of get that visual of almost like the mountain like you start to climb the mountain, and you're in pre-awareness. Well, pre-awareness is really, like, before you even start hiking. It's like you're not really sure yet. You know that there's a lot of anxiety, you have a lot of anxiety, you have some unhealthy patterns. Maybe you keep getting into a relationship, or you keep repeating the same stuff.

People will come in and say to me, "I keep dating the same people, I keep falling for people who are mean to me, what's going on?" And so there's a lot of patterns there, but we haven't really started to uncover that there's a link between our history. Maybe we just think, "Oh, I'm just attracted to mean people." So pre-awareness is really, like, before you even start kind of doing the work of climbing the mountain. It's like you're kind of not really there yet. People are kind of still in, like, the denial phase. And there's a lot of safety in denial. It's really unsettling, sometimes unsafe, especially for younger people or people who don't have a lot of support.

It can be unsafe to examine our family trauma history, which is why I try not to go there too much with kids or people who are still, like, living, people who are still kind of, like, in that family system, especially if you're still living at home because you can't afford to move out. It can be difficult to start the uncovering process when you're still living at home. But pre-awareness is really, like, you're not really sure why it is that you're having these feelings, but you're recognizing that there's something kind of weird going on or some kind of patterns. So then there's uncovering. Uncovering is the second stage. So uncovering is when you start to realize, "Okay, yep, I'm seeing some patterns here, and I'm recognizing them, and I'm recognizing that there was some stuff that happened in my past that might be connected to that." 

And so uncovering is when you start kind of ascending the mountain, and then you're like, okay, I, kind of getting the tools ready so people will, you know, we start to talk about all the ways to manage self-care and to manage the symptoms that come up. Because as you start looking at your history, a lot of negative feelings can come up, and a lot of negative feelings will come up. And unless you know how to handle that, unless you have your support system and things like that, you know, we work a lot on tools, like making sure that you're taking care of your body every day, whatever that looks like for you. If it looks like taking a walk, it looks like making sure you're drinking more water, you know, what kind of foods do you like to eat? Things like that that make you feel good. So that way, when you're starting to uncover, you have the tools needed to really kind of take care of yourself.

Ben: Yeah, so this third stage that you talked about is digging in. What might this look like in an adult who's experienced childhood family trauma?

Kaytee: So digging in is really when you start to look at, and I picture, go ahead and dig, like uncover the stuff. Start to look at patterns that went on in your childhood. Start to look at things in your childhood that maybe you had ignored, denied, excused. There are so many defense mechanisms that come in when we're going through our childhood to help us get through it. We intellectualize things. Oh, well, they're just having a bad day. We excuse things, we deny things. Maybe we, like, don't remember, like we block things out. And so digging in is really when we start to kinda look at those patterns and be like, "Okay, I blocked a lot of this stuff out, or I denied a lot of that, or I excused a lot of that, and that was really dysfunctional, and that was really traumatic." 

And really kind of looking at, "Okay, these are the things that happened." How did it impact what you look like today or like what your patterns look like today? What can we do to uncover? For some clients, it looks like just coming in and talking. Some clients will come in and, okay, well, we just talk about patterns that happened. A lot of times, I find that people will start to notice patterns around holidays. For some reason, i have a lot of clients that will come in around holidays, and they'll be like, I think it's because of all the time that people have to spend with their family around the holidays. So they'll come in and say, "Oh, for the last, like, 10 Thanksgivings, I've had to host Thanksgiving at my house, and it always has to be me, and my mom always did this growing up." 

It all starts to be uncovered because then, for the other ten months out of the year, it's easier to kind of just go on with your days because you're not dealing with your caregivers, your parents, like, every day. You know, it's not like when you're a child, and you're seeing them every day. Yeah, so like a lot of times, ten months will go by, and then people are all excited for Thanksgiving, and then they're coming into my office like the week after Thanksgiving, and they're like, "Ah, like, I remember she used to do this like she'd wake me up at quarter four in the morning to make me bake all these pies, and then we'd," stuff like that would come out.

And so digging in is really like allowing yourself to sit there and be like, "Yes, that happened." Many clients will tell me, for some reason, people have a lot of deep thoughts either when they're in the shower or driving, and, of course, exercising too, like if people are out walking and running and stuff like that. But clients will come in and be like, "Oh, I was driving, and I remembered this thing that happened." And then, we start talking about the pattern of why it is that they act a certain way because they were conditioned to act that way.

Ben: Right, that makes sense. Yeah, thank you for explaining that. When I first heard digging in, I immediately went to, oh, digging in their heels and being stubborn and not wanting to do that.

Kaytee: No!

Ben: Maybe it is because I'm raising a teenager right now.

Kaytee: Probably. But that is good insight because that helps to explain what I'm trying to say. It helps to know how that would come across, like that word. So that is why I give the visual of a mountain to depict digging into it. Actually leaning into it.

Ben: That makes sense, for sure. Thank you for that. So then we move to these final three stages. The next stage after digging in you have is healing. Can you go a bit into that stage of the process?

Kaytee: So doing the work of healing is when we're growing, we're learning. A lot of these stages are going to be some like each person hits the stage sometimes before even realizing that they're at the stage. And so healing for a lot of people is like, how are you growing? How are you moving forward? And a lot of times, we don't know that until we can look back and be like, "Wow, this year I've really grown." You know, I don't think people know, "Okay, today, June 26th, I'm hitting this healing stage." It's usually something that you can kind of notice in hindsight. But that is when we start to notice, or we start to work on, okay, what patterns were happening?

In what ways are you seeing your history manifest now? How can you do the work to change that? And so a lot of times that's done sometimes through therapy, sometimes just talking about it. If people have, like, a severe enough trauma history, so of course, sometimes I recommend other modalities to work through the trauma and stuff like that before you can do the work of healing. I always like to tell clients it's never anything where I'm like, you, like, have to hit stage three by a certain time, and we start healing. Like, I want you healing by a certain time. Like, no, no, no. It's something that usually people start to realize, "Okay, I'm recognizing, I'm seeing the behaviors in myself.

I noticed I was about to snap at my partner about such and such, but then I remembered, okay, and I took a breath, and I was able to change that pattern on my own." And so that is when they're noticing that they're growing or big things are like not reenacting the dysfunctional patterns with the caregivers. So a lot of times, people will get, maybe they have that dysfunctional issue with their mom or their dad. They get into that dynamic, and they're able to stop that. Maybe they're able to stop the argument, or they're able to disengage. And again, around the holidays, for some reason, that puts everyone into, people are really having to test their patience and stuff like that.

And so, excuse me; people will come back in January and be like, "Okay, I noticed a change. I was able to walk out of the room during Thanksgiving and go and set the table, or I was able to take the kids outside for a game of football or something like that," that they noticed, "Okay, whereas in the past, I would've sat and gone with my dad. Like, nope, and we're gonna argue about this, and we're gonna bring up all those unhealthy dynamics. But nope, now I was able to notice that I didn't see myself getting as activated," whether that looks like less arguing, whether it looks like removing yourself, whatever it looks like for you. So that's like the growing stage.

Ben: What an empowering moment, I imagine. That must be that feeling of recognition and of the fact that they were able to do that in that point.

Kaytee:  It is.

Ben: The final two stages that you talk about are understanding and nurturing. What does understanding and nurturing mean? How might that look like for these people healing from this trauma?

Kaytee: So understanding is understanding how our past influences us. So this is what I usually refer to as, like, the aha moment. "Oh, this is why I do that." Or, "Oh, that's what I was doing that whole time." Or things like that, understanding why we do the things we do, how our past influenced us. And it's not about blame. I definitely wanna stress that it's not about blame. It's not like, "Oh, I'm like this because it's my parents' fault," or, "I'm like this because of my environment." I mean, is there a factor? Absolutely. We are a product of our history. However, it is also taking the responsibility of like, "Yes, this happened to me, and it was traumatic.

However, now as an adult, I have the tools and I have the resources available to me to work through it and to figure out what I'm gonna do. And I no longer have the right or the excuse to continue these dysfunctional patterns." And as a teenager, you go to school, and you're fighting with your peers, like literally fist fighting with your peers, and things like that. I'm not saying that that's okay, but you're an adolescent, and you're learning what it is that you've gone through. Now in our 30s and 40s, if we go to work and we're fighting with our peers and stuff like that, like no, we need to really do the work of healing, of recognizing, "Okay, I'm really triggered by this type of situation.

For some reason, I was really irritated by whatever happened in that meeting. I need to kind of do the work through that. The same pattern is happening with my partner again and again. What can I do to change that? Or what can I do to, like, what role am I playing in the dysfunctional pattern that I am continuing to perpetuate." And so that right there is something that, the reason why that is a later stage, of course, is because in the beginning that can be very, it feel very victim-blaming, and it can feel impossible. I mean if you talk to someone who's just starting to uncover or just starting to be comfortable enough acknowledging and recognizing how dysfunctional or even traumatic their family was, it's not likely for them to be like, "Okay, well, what part am I playing in the way that I'm perpetuating this dysfunction with my current partner?" 

It's too much of a jump, and you can have people actually go the other way. So you need to take the time and go through the work of uncovering and go through the work of digging in and things like that. And number six nurturing. And the reason why I say nurturing is because it's more of like a maintenance stage. It's kind of like having a car like you have to do regular maintenance for your car. It's not like you get to healing, and then you're healed, and you're fine, and it never affects you again. Like, you get to the stage of healing, and then it turns to maintenance. We never fully recover. We never fully get to the point where it's, like, never gonna affect us or never gonna be a part of who we are.

Ben: Right, yeah, that process isn't necessarily finite in that we're looking to, "Oh, okay, I'm done. I'm done doing the work."

Kaytee: Yes, and that's it, and I'm healed. Yeah, and I'm going to put the cap on it. That is why I consider it kinda like a mountain. It is not like you get to the top of Everest, and you get the selfie, and you post on Instagram, "Okay, I've healed from my family trauma." Absolutely not. Now, will you get to the point where it's manageable? Absolutely.

Will you get to the point where you can go on and do podcasts and talk about it and help other people? Yes, but it is always something where there's maintenance. There's going to be things, or maybe you are driving along and a song pops up, and that song reminds you of your childhood or maybe there's a death in the family, and everyone is brought together for those events that have to take place and things like that. So there will be times in your life when things will pop up where it's almost like healing really ebbs and flows. It's not like a fine line.

Ben: That actually leads me to my next question. You talked a little bit about how there's not really a set time limit for a person to work through each one of these stages. Everyone kind of works through them at their own pace and based upon their own needs. But in your experience, is it common for people to progress through these stages, maybe in a different order, or for people to revert to a previous stage when they have that trigger, if you will, that kind of puts them back in that space of feeling the trauma in a very real way again? Is it common for people to work through those stages in different ways and revert to previous stages?

Kaytee: Yes, absolutely. I feel like most people are going to start with pre-awareness, whether or not that pre-awareness happened in your childhood. Some kids are very insightful and are able to know that there's something wrong, and they maybe are even in the uncovering, even as an adolescent. Most adolescents, just by nature of needing to survive their environment, are not aware of the level of trauma that's going on in their environment, just because that's how they survive. So I say all that to say most people start there, but it can go any, people can go back to other stages. You know, for example, death in the family is a common one, that people would be like, "Oh, I thought I was healed, and then my dad died, and then I had to go back, felt like I was going back to the digging in, felt like I was going back to uncovering. It's like it all came rushing back."

That is very normal. It is very much like Elisabeth Kubler-Ross with the stages of grief, she talked about how you can go back and forth from other stages, and it's very similar to that kind of pattern that she found with people recovering from, or people managing grief that you can go back and forth. And you can repeat stages. You can skip stages, you can go back and be like, "I thought I was in the understanding, but I guess I'm in uncovering. Maybe I'm kind of wavering back and forth." It's definitely something, kinda like what I said earlier, it's something that usually clients, like, or people know in hindsight that they've gone through the stages.

I mean, rarely, you know, people know, like, the second it happens. It's usually something where they can look back and be like, "Okay, yeah, I've gone six months without any headaches or insomnia or arguments with my mom or things like that." And then each person progresses for a different amount of time. There's no set amount of time. For some people, if they have a lot of support, maybe they do a lot of reading, they do listen to a lot of podcasts, they have a really good support group, a really, like, maybe strong spirituality, strong faith, I feel like they progress faster because they're able to use those resources.

Ben: We know that people have different support systems and different levels of resiliency and just different personalities, and it manifests differently in people. Is it realistic for everyone to expect that their history won't affect them in adulthood? We already talked about the fact that it's not really like you get to that point to where you're done doing the work, but rather you continue to nurture that process throughout the rest of your life. But in your experience, is it realistic for people to expect that the history won't affect them in any way?

Kaytee: I feel like it's unrealistic. I feel like our history affects who we are today and affects really everything from our sense of self, our self-esteem, to how we relate to other people. Now, we can do the work to kind of change that, but it definitely is not realistic to expect that it wouldn't affect us. I know a lot of people think that it doesn't, and I respect that. I think that's the stage of change that they're in, but no, I don't think it's realistic, unfortunately.

Ben: Our listeners are, by and large, social workers. So what are some interventions that might be utilized for social workers who are working with clients who are trying to understand more about their own traumatic experiences and their trauma history and how that's manifesting in adulthood? Are there any interventions specifically that you would recommend for those social workers working with that client?

Kaytee: There are a lot of different theories and interventions like EMDR. I personally really like IFS, but I also feel like it depends on the year or whatever is the popular therapeutic technique of choice. And I respect that. I have many clients who have benefited greatly from EMDR, and that was the only thing that worked. I have many clients that benefited greatly from IFS, and that was the only thing that worked. I really feel like the number one thing that's going to affect change in your client is your relationship with them. I mean more than the modality or anything like that. If you have a client and you feel like EMDR is, for example, the only thing that is going to work for them, absolutely, that is between you and the client, your clinical discretion of what you feel like you need to do for the client, if you need to refer out, whatever you need to do.

But the number one thing is really letting the client direct what they're comfortable talking about and your relationship with them and believing them. So many times, and I've had this experience too on the other side when I was in college where the therapist's saying you really need to get over that, that's in the past, and things like that. And that can do more damage to a client than any modality that you use that you shouldn't have used or something like that. Like, a lot of times, clinicians will say to me, "Well, I'm using CBT, but should I try this?" I worry more about, are you believing the client. Are you providing a safe space for them to talk about their history without judgment and without feeling like you're denying or minimizing? That is like the number one, above all else.

Ben: That makes sense. So for those looking to heal from their own history, many of us in this profession also have our own histories, right? And so, what would you recommend for people who are living in those stages currently and seeing the manifestations of that trauma? Is therapy necessary for everyone? Is it recommended for most? What would you say to help support people who are healing currently from their own histories of traumatic experiences?

Kaytee: So the thing I like to tell people is to do something that helps them develop their own self-awareness. So some people like journaling. For some people, that's the last thing they wanna do is journal. Gardening, going out and taking time to meditate, doing yoga, walking, whatever works for you. If I say, do yoga, and the thought makes you go, "Oh, that's the last thing I wanna do," don't do that. You know, whatever it is that works for you, you can take time to really self-reflect. The big things are self-reflecting. The big things are developing self-awareness, doing a lot of educating, listening to podcasts, reading books, things like that, talking to other people about their history, and reading.

I think that therapy is something I recommend if you feel like the symptoms are impacting your life. If you're feeling like it's impacting your sleep impacting your relationships, then then it's necessary. If you have a lot of support, or if you have what you feel like is the support you need, and you don't feel like you need anyone to help you manage any negative symptoms that are coming up, you're just kind of exploring and becoming aware, I don't think therapy is necessary.

Ben:  Thank you for that and for this discussion, Kaytee. Now, for anyone listening who might want to learn more about this topic, how might they get a hold of you, or where can they get a copy of your books?

Kaytee:  I would like just to direct everyone to my website. It's kind of confusing. My mom spelled my name kind of weird. It's www, and it's my full name, Kaytlyn Gillis, LCSW. So it's K-A-Y-T-L-Y-N G-I-L-L-I-S-L-C-S-W, for licensed clinical social worker, dot com. And my books are available all on Amazon, so you can put my name into Amazon, and my books will come up, or you can go to my website, and there should be links there.

Ben: All right. Well, perfect. Well, Kaytee, thank you so much for your time and for this conversation.

Kaytee: Thank you.

Ben: I know that I found it very helpful and enlightening, and I'm sure that our listeners will as well. Keep doing the incredible work that you're doing, and thanks again for joining us.

Kaytee: Thank you so much for having me.

References 

Cai, J., Li, J., Liu, D., Gao, S., Zhao, Y., Zhang, J., & Liu, Q. (2023). Long‐term effects of childhood trauma subtypes on adult brain function. Brain & Behavior, 13(5), 1–9. https://doi.org/10.1002/brb3.2981

Gillis, K. (2023). Breaking the Cycle: The 6 Stages of Healing from Family Trauma. Lisa Nicole Publishing.

Hong, A., Zhou, S., Yang, C., Liu, X., Su, S., & Wang, Z. (2023). Impact of childhood trauma on the abnormal functional connectivity of brain regions in the fear network model of panic disorder. Journal of Affective Disorders, 329, 500–510. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jad.2023.02.128

Laghaei, M., Mehrabizadeh Honarmand, M., Jobson, L., Abdollahpour Ranjbar, H., & Habibi Asgarabad, M. (2023). Pathways from childhood trauma to suicidal ideation: mediating through difficulties in emotion regulation and depressive symptoms. BMC Psychiatry, 23(1), 1–13. https://doi.org/10.1186/s12888-023-04699-8

Li, C., Fu, P., Wang, M., Xia, Y., Hu, C., Liu, M., Zhang, H., Sheng, X., & Yang, Y. (2023). The role of self-esteem and emotion regulation in the associations between childhood trauma and mental health in adulthood: a moderated mediation model. BMC Psychiatry, 23(1), 1–11. https://doi.org/10.1186/s12888-023-04719-7